In this episode, we tackle some issues faced by teens as they explore Paganism. If you'll remember, I asked for some input from listeners on this one. I received two great responses from two teens: Coty and Ashley. Though their e-mails sent this episode in a bit of a different direction than what I was planning, they bring up some great questions and topics to think about.
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http://media.libsyn.com/media/thebroomcloset/TBC20071129.mp3
My apologies for the late upload. My wireless internet connection went down again last night because of snow.
Blessings!
~LitheWolf
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About Me
- LitheWolf
- I'm a solitary, ecclectic, Wiccan Witch and, as you may have guessed, I'm "in the broom closet." I live with my loving husband in Seattle, WA where I work as a shop-girl and visual artist. If you have any feed-back to give, I'd appreciate it. Just leave a comment on a blog post or e-mail me at thebroomcloset@hotmail.com.
Pagan Resources and General Awesomeness
- Pagan Connection
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- Catnip Brew Podcast
- The Dark Side of Fey Podcast
- Path of the Wise Ones Tradition
- The White Stag Podcast
- CoutryWitch CityWitch Podcast
- Greywolf's Pagan Podcast Compendium
- A Pagan Heart In Maine Podcast
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- PaganSpace.net
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24 comments:
Thank you so very much! You really did help, and also helped me realize how very whiney I sounded in my email, hehe. Again, thank you, your advice and the sheer fact that you care means a lot to me.
Blessed be!
Thank you very much for taking the time to cover my concerns in this episode :) it was very helpful and I enjoyed your explanation of magick.
Lol I probably should have mentioned this in my email (my bad) but I actually am 18 haha. Yes, so there is the potential there to move out if my mom -does- go into 'exorcism' mode, though that is personally a last resort. My mom and I have always had a strong relationship and I'd hate to hurt her in that way.
But once again, thank you! Great episode... and I'll keep listening :)
i love zelda
Thank you, LitheWolf, I am humbled beyond words.
As a Wiccan man, the best advice that I can give to Coty is this; books, no matter who writes them, will only get you so far. It is impossible to get the 'ritual experience' from reading about it. This is a path of action, learn the basics; ie. how to cast a circle by yourself, all your correspondences; then walk your path. Experience will teach you the lessons about being a Pagan man better than any book.
LitheWolf, anytime you wanna Chalice and Blade CD for the show, let me know, You can preview some of the songs on our myspace page.
www.myspace.com/chaliceandblade
Your advice to Cody was excellent.
One point I feel was missed was this: For me, one of the great things about being a part of a non-mainstream religion is that it all depends on YOUR view. Meaning, if there is nothing out there that speaks to your needs, make it up. No one is can say anything about what you believe. All of the books you might read were written by people just like you. They figured a few things out and wrote them down. They have no higher authority that anyone else.
I was brought to paganism through a very strong sense of self-determination. I saw the beauty in worshiping with the seasons, and the great old gods.. But the clincher for me, was that *I* was the final authority for what I believe and do.
Don't get me wrong. I do believe that there is much to learn from those who have come before (no need to reinvent the wheel). But when it comes to things you cannot find... "If it is to be, it is up to me" is a good motto.
Wow, guys! I don't realy know what to say.
Coty, Ashley: I'm glad that you think I did your emails justice and that what I had to say made some kind of sense to you. BIG thanks again for "stepping up to the plate" and participating. This episode would not have happened without you.
Mojo: I would love a Chalice and Blade CD! I'll send you an email and we'll workout the details.
Nathan: Great point! I absolutely agree with you. In the end, what matters most is that you practice your religion in the way that is most spiritually satisfying to you. In that sense, no book contains the answers to the really important questions for a Pagan and no one else can ever be more authoritative about your spiritual path than you.
Hi LitheWolf,
I began studying Wicca during the summer at the age of 31 and feel like I have found a spiritual path that truly fits me. I love your podcast, it has been (and I'm sure will continue to be) a wonderful source of insight and information for me as I continue my study.
I lived in your neck of the woods - Walla Walla - for about six years, and I must admit that College Place is the LAST place I'd have expected to find an eclectic Wiccan. (LOL)
Keep up the amazing work.
Thank you for addressing the problems of teens researching Wicca! As a teen myself (14...woo!)
I do have one BIG problem - I feel that, even though I really believe my life has been driven to Wicca and that I find solace in Wiccan morals, I am trying to be 'the different kid'. Previously I have been the 'different kid', and my parents question lots of my actions whether it is really what I want or me just trying to be 'different'.
I really, really want to learn more about and eventually practice Wicca...but I don't know why I'm doing it. Is it me really finding myself, or is it me just trying to be 'different'?
Anonymous Walla Wallen - Glad that you're enjoying the show! It's great to know that there are more of us out in this neck of the woods than I thought.
Dividedroad - I'm afraid that only you can decide if Wicca is really the right path for you or not. It's a big decision and the "why" of it matters a lot! Take some time to think seriously about what you're doing and why. Does it make sense to you? Do you find Wicca to be a spiritually fulfilling religion? If magick is the main draw for you, then Wicca may not be exactly what you're looking for (remember: Wicca is first and foremost a religion). But there's certainly no harm in learning about Wicca, or any other religion for that matter. If you're not entirely certain yet that Wicca is really for you, take a look at some other paths, Pagan and otherwise. What you find may surprise you.
Thanks, Lithewolf. And no, I wasn't attracted by magick, but rather how Wicca taught appreciation of the land. Many concepts in Wicca I considered earlier. Blessings!
Wow...That was sad.
If you'll notice, the comment above this one has been removed. I'm very much for free speech and I think that people have every right to hold whatever beliefs and opinions they have, but attacking people that you don't know without even having the guts to leave your name on the comment is where I draw the line on this site.
I don't care if you disagree with what I have to say. As you know, I welcome all feedback, both positive and negative, so if you have anything to say to me you are more than welcome to do so, but please leave my listeners and show participants alone.
Offering friendly advice? Fine. Blunt opinions? Sometimes we need to hear them even if we don't want to. But attacks on the personal and moral characters of my listeners and those brave enough to offer their thoughts and questions to the rest of the show's listening community will absolutely not be tolerated.
That said, here's what they had to say about me (though most of the comment was so incoherent and ridiculous I'm still not certain whether to take it seriously or not):
"I can't believe that you would address something this awful to teenagers!
This crap isn't real. EVERYTHING you do has consequences: not only to yourself but to others as well."
"Magic is not real. Everything happens for a reason. I think it's really sad and quite pathetic that you would address this podcast to teenagers."
...And on it goes, but this is where I end it.
Bright Blessings!
~LitheWolf
Hello Lithewolf, I have to agree with most of the others who have left comments; you do a very nice podcast. Your voice is great, and you have a very smooth delivery. Very few "uhs and uhms." Bet you did very well in high school speech.
I have only listened to this one podcast. I am not a pagan but wanted to hear your point of view. I noticed that you deleted a comment that was negative. This is your website, and of course you can do with it whatever you like, but is this not a forum to discuss both sides? Or will you only allow positive comments? I will eagerly await your response. Thank you.
Anonymous Commenter:
Thank you for your feedback and the opportunity to make my point of view clear: I do very much want to hear out both sides of any issue, but I will not tolerate personal attacks on my listeners and show participants. If you have a differing view point to express, please do so. If I or a contributing listener is mistaken about something that we have said or if you think that we are incorrect in our opinions, I welcome your dissent. However, if your comment basically says that my listeners or show participants are going to Hell, or that they are indecent and immoral people for even listening or talking to me, please expect your comment to be deleted. I will gladly re-post any portion of your comment which refers directly to me or to the show in and of itself or any advice you have to offer the listeners or participants that has to do with their religion or path in the helpful context of their religion or path, but that is it. For example: If you wrote a comment here, telling someone who had written into the show about love spells that love spells are dangerous and should never be dabbled in or that love spells are a long, time-honored tradition and should be done as one sees fit, I would have no problem leaving your comment. If, however, you insist on attacking the participant by saying that they are an evil, hateful, or stupid person for even thinking that magic(k) of any kind exists, please expect your comment to be deleted as it is religiously intolerant and of no possible constructive use to myself or any listener.
Wicca, and many other Pagan religions, holds existence or at least the possibility of magick and magickal practice as a basic tenant. I believe that I have done my best to make it clear that this show is aimed at closeted Wiccans and other Pagans. If you do not believe that magick exists, or--more importantly--that magick is an illusion created by some ontologically evil figure to trick you into doing their evil bidding, I feel justified in asking you:
1) What the heck are you doing on a blatantly Pagan website, listening to a blatantly Pagan show?
2) Why do you care about any of this in the first place if you believe that it is all crap?
3) If this really has to do with the person who wrote in (i.e., you know that person in real life) why are you saying nasty things about them on this forum instead of talking with them about it face-to-face?
Please, say all the nasty things about me and this show and the ideas expressed on it that you want. Call me a bitch. Say that magick is a stupid delusion held by all truly ignorant and uneducated peoples. Say that Wicca, Paganism, and all its ilk are the true stumbling-blocks to the advancement of civilization and humankind as we know it, but if you say that contributor "Wilma" is clearly a brainless nitwit with all the incredible verisimilitude of an inebriated giraffe who only wants to lead all of God's good children down the path of sinful, illegally intoxicated, blasphemous heresy, don't think that I will waste another second before deleting that piece of crap right off the face the internet.
So, to re-cap: Saying that magick doesn't exist? Ok. Saying that anyone who believes in magick is the deluded, fatherless, son-of-a-whore? Not ok. Saying that I, LitheWolf, am a deluded, fatherless, daughter-of-a-whore? Bring it on.
I hope that I've made myself clear now. Thank you.
If you want to remove my comment, thats completely fine as well.
If you even want to take some of my quotes out of context, that doesn't make me look bad: it makes you look bad.
Oh, and as a matter of fact, I DO personally know one of the teenagers that wrote into your show.
I would like to know, if "Paganism" is such a great "religion," then why would you make the choice to be in the "broom closet?" Why would anyone for that matter?
If all you're going to post is the positive comments, and not the negative ones, then that's your decision. Obviously, you're "religion" and the "ideals" that stand behind it aren't quite as openminded as you pretend it is.
LitheWolf,
I am sorry that you seem to be having issues with narrow minded people that cannot debate an idea without attacking the person.
You have stated your position quite clearly. All I can do is quite a little Eleanor Roosevelt "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.".
I hope your new year brings you much joy, and that your podcast continues to grow.
Blessed Be
I've been sent very nasty, hurtful messages that have been unwarranted in the past.
These "messages" did not have to do with my religion but more personal matters of mine, and even my home situation. From what I can glean of the deleted message, it seemed completely -hurtful- and -unnecessary-. There is a difference between civil responding and what we on the net call flaming.
Obviously the poster of the deleted comment wanted to gain some attention or cause controversy (much like the situation you seem to be trying to spin it as, anonymous) which is not beneficial to LitheWolf or a civilian that listens to this show. Personally, I don't want to read the mindless drivel of somebody who obviously only took the time to comment because they wanted to spark a flame war.
These two teens wrote into the show hoping to get some guidance or understanding, they don't deserve hurtful and degrading responses.
Ashley's Mom or Other Familial Figure:
I am sorry that you feel I have treated you and your comment unfairly. I am also sorry that you are angry that your daughter has visited this site and written e-mails to me. However, in your comment you still insulted a teenage boy that you do not know at all and your own daughter. If you do not consider telling someone that they are going to burn in Hell for their beliefs and spiritual explorations to be insulting and hurtful, then you and I have come to a cultural impasse.
The person you need to talk to is Ashley, not me or my listeners. I did not force her to write to me or to visit this site. As far as I can tell from what she had to say in the e-mail I read on this episode, she is not actually Wiccan or a Pagan of any kind. She is exploring; looking into what other people think and believe. If you really think that she ought to stop, you'll have to take that up with her.
Your question with regards to why I and many of my listeners stay in the closet is so very full of delicious irony that I don't really feel the need to answer.
Let me state for the record that I do think that Christianity is a great religion. It has lots of important lessons to teach about what it means to be human and how we should try to treat each other. I owe a great debt to my Christian family for being the first ones to show me that there is something infinitely larger than myself out there. Be that as it may, Christianity is not the religion for me. I don't believe that Jesus was the son of Yahweh, for starters, or that Yahweh is the only god out there, so I think you'll agree that I cannot be Christian. That doesn't mean that I am not open to a Christian perspective on this site, but I do want things to at least try to remain civil when listeners address each other and any show participants.
That said, this topic is officially done and over with. If Ashley's Mother/Person Who Knows Her wants to make a final rebuttal to this, then fine. I, however, am done and I would rather that all following comments on this page pertain specifically to the content of this episode of the show rather than this rather unpleasant exchange.
Thank you.
I would like to clarify that this isn't Ashley's Mom.
Never did I mention exactly which teenager I personally know, so where you got Ashley's Mom from, I don't know.
And, just for the record, my post WAS about the content of the show. I listened to every word of it because it was linked to the teenagers blog.
Just wanted to clear up that no, this was not Ashley's Mom
Sounds like things got a little confusing here. You had more than one "anonymous" posting comments.
The person who posted the comment that you deleted wasn't Ashley's mom. I am. But you had a valid question about why I why a Christian would be on your website and listening to your podcast. Well, the subject was teens and paganism, and suddenly I have found myself very interested. We're talking about my child, here, and there's not a more important subject to me.
Once I found that Ashley was researching paganism, I wanted to do some research of my own. I've been a journalist for 28 years and accustomed to telling both sides of a story. I was surprised to hear that she felt she had some problems with Christianity. Nothing was ever forced on her as she grew up, and I didn't call an exorcist when I found out what she was doing. That was a pretty funny comment. We've since had some very good discussions about this subject.
The earlier anonymous post did make a valid point that I don't think you addressed. If Wicca is such a great life path, why are you hiding? I am saying this just as sincerely as I can, please believe me: this has got to be a huge stress on you, to feel like you have to live one way in front of your family and another in private.
Do you think you would be persecuted by Christians? I can't speak for the millions of my fellow believers, but I can tell you this from me, personally.... I would not persecute you, follow you around with an open Bible or any such nonsense. As a human being and a creation of God, you have immense value. Just like my daughter, you are precious and your life has meaning and should be lived to the fullest extent! In my life I have known, and sometimes been friends with, people who have had different views. Sometimes even lifestyles that I did not agree with and would never agree with. But in His word, God tells us to love one another. (He didn't say that I must agree that your lifestyle is okay.) That's the way I'm trying to live my life.
I just wanted to clear up any confusion about who was posting. It's true that I'm not happy that Ashley is researching paganism as a way of life. I have invited her to be truly fair about this and read not only Scott Cunningham, but also some fine Christian authors like Max Lucado, and let's address some of those questions she has. As far as I'm concerned, a life that has to be lived in secret is not much of a life.
Thank you for letting me air my views. I won't post again, but if you would ever like to email me privately, just get in touch with Ashley and I'll be glad to talk to you further about any of these issues.
Ashley's Mom;
Thank you for your post and clarifying where you, as the mom, stand.
The reason that a large number of pagans choose to remain "in the broom closet" about their faith is just as you said. There are a VERY large number of people that still confuse paganism with satanism. I have personal experience with this. When I was living in a small town in rural Indiana, I was on the target of quite a bit of nastiness. But that is besides the point.
I am very happy to hear you are keeping an open heart to your daughter. I would also urge you to read the same books she is reading. Then to have a conversation about them, what they mean, and where some of the concepts fit into YOUR faith.
I would not agree that "a life that has to be lived in secret is not much of a life". Rather I think you should listen to LitheWolf's Episode #8. It may give you and your daughter some ideas on how to talk about such issues.
I can tell you that in my conversations with my mother, the greatest thing is to remember that you each other, and approach everything you do with that love. And from the tone of your letter, I have no doubt that you are a GOOD woman, and a GOOD Christian, with PLENTY of love.
Blessings,
Nathan
Ashley's Mom and the Anonymous Commenter:
My deepest appologies for mistaking your identity. The original comment which I deleted included some rather more personal information about Ashley and her religious habits than she had previously told me or indicated in the e-mail that I read in this episode, so I assumed that you, Anonymous/Not Ashley's Mom, were someone who knows Ashley in a rather more personal way.
I also knew that Ashley's older sister had recently tracked her internet activity back to this website. The prompt arrival of the original comment seemed a rather significant coincidence at the time. So, putting two and two together, I figured that Anonymous/Not Ashley's Mom was one of her two, understandably concerned relatives.
If this is absolutely not the case, then I owe you both an apology. Mea culpa.
Ashley's Mom, thank you so very much for your terrific response. I'm glad that you and Ashley are taking steps to try and work things out. One of the reasons that I reacted so defensively to the comment that Anonymous posted was because I know only too many people like myself who are not lucky enough to have relatives like you. I also felt that the person who posted that comment was simply trying their best to publicly ridicule Ashley, and that sort of stuff doesn't help anyone here.
You are correct: Being in the closet can be a big strain. While I cannot speak for every closeted person that visits here, I can say that for myself the stress of being in the closet is nothing compared to the hurt and conflict that being openly Wiccan would cause my family.
My grandparents and my husband's mother and father are Seventh-day Adventist and very conservatively Christian. They very much think that anyone who does not believe as they do--even other Christians--will be "lost" at the Second Coming. Throughout my practice of Wicca, I have periodically tried to discuss other religions and spiritual ideas with these people and I have been rather soundly shut-down every time thus far.
I love these people. They are my family. I would rather hurt myself than hurt them. The unfortunate fact is that right now, and perhaps for the rest of their lives, they would not be able to understand my religion or why I chose it because they believe that even looking at or pondering such things opens them up to the devil's influence. They would feel as though they had failed as spiritual elders and teachers and they may even feel as though they had to separate themselves from me just to keep my "evil taint" off of them.
Wicca is an excellent religion. I cannot fully describe to you all the reasons why--as I mention in several episodes, Wicca is highly experiental. It has strong moral codes and an embracing perspective on life and other cultures. It is also rich in beautiful, poetic symbolism. I struggled with Wicca, Christianity, and the possible effects on my family life for the first two years of my studies before finally admitting to myself that Wicca was the path I wanted to follow.
Your question is interesting because many Pagans ask it, too. My response is that I love my family and don't wish to hurt them. I know them well enough to know that coming out to them would do more harm than good. I also know that my faith and practice of Wicca is not, nor ever has been dependant upon who or how many people know that I am Wiccan. I honor my gods and goddesses, keep the Sabbats and Esbats and try to live a good life. None of those things are dependant upon anyone but myself.
You may well ask why I do this show, then, if I really don't need others to know about my being Wiccan. I have been in the closet for eight years as a solitary practitioner and I know how lonely and stressful it can be to live the way that I do. I started this show so that I could reach out to others in my--or a similar--position and let them know that they aren't alone. Hearing them talk back lets me know that I'm not alone either. It's comforting.
I really thank you for writing here and for making your position on all of this known. The world needs more parents with your kind of patience.
Lithewolf, your comments and those from Nathan were so nice, I just had to respond. I know, I know, I said I was done, but I always have had the tendency to talk too much! LOL
You did a great job of answering my question about the secrecy. I understand more now why you are keeping your lifepath to yourself. Your comment about your family feeling as though they had "failed" as spiritual elders particularly touched me. I know I did things as a young woman that I would have not shared with my parents because it would have hurt them. I get it.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate those kind words. Being a good mom has been so important to me. I never thought I was going to have kids and then at 30, BOOM, they showed up! In 5 years I had 3 babies, and they are so special to me! My sweet Ashley is the middle child.
So, to cut to the chase, you guys have given me 'way too much credit, though I certainly appreciate it! Again, I hope I can word this the right way so it comes across sincerely.... Ashley asked me recently how I can have such a strong faith, and I told her by looking in the mirror. I know the kind of anger and rage I carried around for most of my adult life. If I have any tiny bit of the qualities you guys mentioned, it's been divinely infused into me.
Thanks again for the exchange of ideas. I better understand your feelings now. Best wishes to you all.
Hey there!
Great podcast, you help more people get by day to day than you can know.
I am an extremely Old Soul and recognized (I can't say discovered- I think I always knew what I believed) Paganism when I was only 9 (to be fair, it was only a month until my birthday).
I always believed in magick, and not the pink-and-sparkly kind that nine-year-olds usually believe in. I knew the rules of magick, to harm none, to never use more energy than you could handle, etc. I loved nature, and (still do) spent most of my time in the park across the road. Most of all I believed in the Old Gods. I always believed in them, I just took it for granted. I have always loved the Middle Ages, and everything to do with them- I do archery, longsword fighting, spinning, weaving, sewing, horseback riding, falconry, you name it. I am also an extremely patriotic Irishwoman, and even now I'm tied to that land like a bee to a flower.
Once I tried telling my mom I thought there were Goddesses as well as male deities.
I had to lock myself in the bathroom, that's how scared I was and how loud she was screaming.
A year later when I was 11, my friend told me she and her mother were Wiccan. She told me she knew I had been raised Christian and please not to think that she worshipped the devil. I looked at her and started laughing. "Blessed be," I said to her. She introduced me to their coven, and now I try to go to as many things I can under the guise of "I'm going to a sleep over." I always knew what I believed, but I guess I didn't think anyone else still believed it.
I am 15 now, and the men and women of the coven are still some of the most accepting people I have ever met. My relatives are (being Irish) devoutly and unreasonably Catholic, and not the accepting, liberal kind. Like most Pagans in the closet, I fear that my parents will find out- I'll tell them when I move out, and they can get as mad as they want.
But in the mean time, I would like to thank you, Lithe Wolf. You help so many people each day, and may the Lord and Lady bless thee for it!
Blessed Be,
-Niamh "Oaksong"
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